It is always fun when Dr Holly Sawyer PHD shows up and this time is no different. On this episode of Black Therapist Podcast we talk about transitioning from Private to Group Practice. The challenges of being a Black Woman Therapist BOSS.. and why hiring cross cultural presents a unique challenge. And the intimacies of doing Telehealth.
This week is part One of our conversation tune in next week for Part Two..
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Unknown Speaker 0:00
All right, so you’re back. Introduce yourself.
Unknown Speaker 0:05
Unknown Speaker 0:06
I am Dr. Holly Sawyer, a licensed therapist practicing in Philadelphia.
Unknown Speaker 0:11
Now you in private practice? Yes, I am.
Unknown Speaker 0:15
I have a solo practice in a group practice now.
Unknown Speaker 0:19
We got a check match in my group practice next month.
Unknown Speaker 0:22
Unknown Speaker 0:25
We’ll talk about it.
Unknown Speaker 0:29
You know, I have a hard time hiring people like I’ve been trying to get back to come on. Just like glowing recommendations going resumes and like work ethic is different. So, I am looking forward to having a good practice. But I am not looking forward to having a good practice.
Unknown Speaker 0:51
Yep. And I think you’re definitely in the right.
Unknown Speaker 0:55
Let me interview you. Okay. Okay, so what’s the biggest challenge in having a group practice? Besides the staff? Because I think that’s a real so
Unknown Speaker 1:09
Oh, no, I didn’t, I’m not having that issue. It is with staff, but not like what you think I’m having a heart issue with, I’m identifying the right staff. So I’ve already had to let somebody go, I don’t want to say fire. But I’ve already had to let someone go. Um, and then like, the interview process has been, um, a process. But it’s like, you just don’t want to hire somebody just because they look good on paper, like, it has to be a whole vibe. And so, um, I have not hired anybody since September. But another young lady came recommended from a good friend of mine. And she was, she was a, I won’t say odor. But she’s a mature woman. I’m very nononsense sweetheart. And I was just like, Okay, this is what I’m looking for. But I also have younger conditions too. But it’s again, just finding that right? by it, not just what’s on paper, where’s your office located? So my group practice is 100%. Online. You
Unknown Speaker 2:26
so that’s, that’s what I want to do. Number one, I’m licensed in four states. And so to be able to treat, um, well, it’s, it’s a dual thing. Obviously, I want to be able to create and cultivate an environment where there are more independent clinicians in order to do that. Like I was being asked to supervise. I love supervising, but I just don’t understand the concept of having people pay me hundreds of dollars to supervise, how are they seeing their clients, our where they gathering clients, I can just kind of didn’t make any sense to me without actually having them under my practice, so that I could see, see how they work. And then see, you know, like, read their notes and stuff. Um, so that was part of it. Okay, the majority of my practice now, I say, I’m 5050 between New York. like New York, New Jersey is like one half of my practice, and the rest of it is in Georgia. Got it. Um, so I’m like, I might as well work on that Georgia side, and see what that what that looks like. Plus, I don’t know how long I want to stay in New York, because COVID has kind of changed, change the game. So I don’t know how long I’m gonna be looking at these four walls. My room at this point, because all I’ve been doing is online shopping and looks like a closet. I gotta go. I gotta go out shoes stacked to the ceiling. And I’m not even being funny, huh?
Unknown Speaker 4:06
So are you thinking about relocating to Georgia?
Unknown Speaker 4:11
Here’s the thing. I feel like that’s where all of the New York people go. Yep. So I almost like I always almost just want to be ornery and not go just because I don’t want to do what everybody else is doing. But in terms of like, my business connections, I’m already licensed there. You know, people already have a name down the business wise, cost of living is cheaper. I can still keep my New York salary. On socially, like if I move somewhere I have to still be able to be social and go out walking, do it in COVID. But, you know, like, where I had the most friends and like a social network is probably Georgia outside of like, New York and DC.
Unknown Speaker 4:55
Okay, gotcha. Gotcha. Well, it
Unknown Speaker 4:59
sounds like Pro I wouldn’t go that far because it’s Georgia. I mean, shout out to Georgia. What?
Unknown Speaker 5:06
Unknown Speaker 5:10
yeah, shout out to Georgia.
Unknown Speaker 5:12
Unknown Speaker 5:14
I live the good penny in the south so I’m definitely not looking to go south if I work to relocate is definitely going west. But not like California West though. But West.
Unknown Speaker 5:24
Where would you go? Um, that’s not
Unknown Speaker 5:28
I I am a huge fan of Seattle. I love the city.
Unknown Speaker 5:33
I love it. Yes, I love it.
Unknown Speaker 5:36
And I have been looking at homes and been you know, saving them and liking them with the hearts on Zillow. So yeah, I would I would definitely go west if I must spend the money. I’m gonna live in a place that you know has water evergreen trees I can go to Canada if I want to. You know have go foolish stopping here but I’m not going back to the Midwest. I’m from a Western is cold Seattle, believe it or not, is not as cold as Illinois or Michigan.
Unknown Speaker 6:09
So I hate the Seahawks. And I hate Seattle too. And we’ll leave it at that.
Unknown Speaker 6:18
Girl, I’m going for the good fish and a nice house looking out on to the I mean, I’m not
Unknown Speaker 6:25
mad at you that the other clinician that I want to ask to come on that she was on the season that you want. She’s from Seattle. And like she’s born and raised. Yeah. And I I mean, I think for you, if you move to Seattle, you’d make a killing. You know what I’m saying? Because like, it’s not a lot of us out. No, it’s not. And then when I went to visit him in Seattle was just like, everybody knew that he that he played ball because he was black. It is no buddy else, like northern Negroes in the town. So that was really weird for me. But yeah, I don’t really like the West Coast period. Oh, okay. Gotcha.
Unknown Speaker 7:05
Yeah, I haven’t been I’ve never been to California and I’m just not if I like season you got it go on. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 7:11
California, California is is I like it. And I’ve actually been thinking about getting a license in Cali to um, because I know that New York and Cali are the hardest two states to get licensed in. But I already got a new york license so I might as well just go ahead for the Cali one. Um, and plus in terms of like income, you know what you can make you can make a good living. Mm hmm. Charging like Kelly is all about health period. So you could you know, you get blood from a turnip in Cali
Unknown Speaker 7:47
Unknown Speaker 7:48
I just would never want to I don’t know I can’t say California is a huge state I’ve only been to like la in the valley I don’t love it my cousin just moved from there my other cousins from the valley my favorite cousin on the planet May she rest in peace she was from Cali so they are Kelly has a lot of my other cousins lives out there like like there is a lot of positives to it. I just don’t like the vibe of like la okay and Vegas in you know i don’t i don’t know maybe I’ll do my time I’ve only been out there a few times so I don’t know about Seattle I guess I’ll visit when you move we’ll see
Unknown Speaker 8:33
console company when I move I just got to have my
Unknown Speaker 8:35
Unknown Speaker 8:36
and actually can see seasons
Unknown Speaker 8:39
oh god yes yeah Seattle
Unknown Speaker 8:41
has season is just not you know it’s not always sunny like California is not and I got to see snow sometimes I gotta have a fall because that’s my favorite season I love
Unknown Speaker 8:53
those in Cali sometimes like not like where we think of and Kelly but aren’t there like mountains and stuff? Yeah, it is
Unknown Speaker 9:01
but that’s not really like you know? Yeah, like I really want seasons like if I know if I live on the East Coast I’m literally getting off for a season and a Seattle I’m going to get all four seasons and you’re right the farther you go up the state of California you’re definitely gonna get
Unknown Speaker 9:19
um you know there’s a rattles I’m not sure if they caught Nike, you know if they border but there’s there is snow in Denver is
Unknown Speaker 9:31
Yeah, but I’m good on that. So how many? How many conditions are you looking to bring on?
Unknown Speaker 9:37
I don’t know. Because this is like brand new. A brand new thing for me. Okay. And I would have launched last year, but I didn’t do it in 2020. Because of the I don’t know how in affiliate or like Pennsylvania it is and I don’t know why I don’t have a license in Pennsylvania yet. Because Pennsylvania, I told you Pennsylvania was where I was gonna move. And it was so easy. I will. I’m looking at, you know what it is, I’m not in office anymore. And my part my, who’s my business partner now, he used to be my director, like my supervisor. Okay, so he signs off on my paperwork, but we haven’t seen each other. We saw each other once for the year. Hmm, you know what I mean? Like, we haven’t even I can, I was in January, when I came, I went to Africa. So before this happened, I came back, like I literally was in the office, once, when I saw him, I haven’t seen him since, um, and my other partner, I’ve seen them, maybe two or three times just going to pick up the mail. So I haven’t really seen anybody. So yeah, that’s kind of why I haven’t thought about doing it, but I got to see him anyway. Um, but in New York, you have to get a pllc. And in order to have a multi state practice, you have to have some sort of entity in each state, which isn’t. And then in order to, if you have a pllc taxable tax wise, you guys, if you’re listening, tax wise, you are an LLC. And what an LLC is, is is passed through income, which means that whatever the business makes you made, right, and it’s not a separate entity, so if the business makes $100,000, and then you got an extra side gig, or whatever it is that you made $100,000 plus whatever, and you’re taxed at a higher rate. Hmm. And so I want to be an S Corp. And in order to be an S corp, I have to make over $40,000 the first year. So starting in January gives me 14 months, I mean, gives me 16 months, because I have until April in order to count that year to make $40,000 in the business. And so that’s why I had to you know, once I spoke to the accountants, I was like, I gotta wait till January in order to do this because this is it so I have my paperwork has been filled out. I’m waiting to drop it in the mail like January 1, but yeah, that’s why I waited.
Unknown Speaker 12:21
Okay, but that makes sense.
Unknown Speaker 12:23
And so you’ll be headquartered in New York and then the other branches will be another space that you license
Unknown Speaker 12:29
for now for now the business will be a new york new jersey business, okay. And as I hide like I’m not it don’t make any sense for me to register the business in multiple states if I don’t have conditions there if I’m buying a clinician that’s in Georgia then I’ll do the Georgia paperwork and then see but even so are you taking insurance all you all cast face?
Unknown Speaker 12:53
No, I’m the insurance I’m STI is on the group practice but I don’t say I have not opened up insurance but a solo practice.
Unknown Speaker 13:00
Unknown Speaker 13:02
me see this is why very each other.
Unknown Speaker 13:08
So I run them totally separate. So to solo practice, I is all cash. So pay, I never wanted to do insurance. Because to me, it was just a headache to pay all these hundreds of dollars to get panels to go back and forth for argue with them. Your billing and I was like, I can’t do that. Like if it feels like work. I’m also just at a nine to five. So I never did the insurance piece on the solo practice, but I do EAP because they’re like, in and out. Well,
Unknown Speaker 13:36
I don’t know which ones you do. We could talk about that offline, but they most of them don’t pay nothing.
Unknown Speaker 13:41
So, um, it Yeah, you’re right, it really does depends, because there are some data upper like 100 bucks 420 some page 150 the lowest
Unknown Speaker 13:51
50 you know, $65 $60 I’ve had some Tell me $35
Unknown Speaker 13:59
Ah, the lowest I’ve come across was 50. And I was like no. And so then if you don’t want to do the EAP some APS will pay you like 100 120 $20 to deliver like a 45 minute training on different topics that they already have for employees of different agencies. So I kind of I kind of weave in and out with different APS depending on what they offer. And then there’s that on a solo side, not a practice the group practice again, once you present a lie, I have a couple condition. Um, and the thing with that is I want it on purpose to open it up for insurance because I partner with an agency that does all of my credentialing. That does my billing. I really don’t do nothing but just submit attended. That’s and I’m putting it lightly because it’s like a just them knowing like who came under what assurance so that again, they get a little piece for submitting my billing and then I get the rest of the money and I’m like had I not had that partnership. This thing would have never came About because I just can’t be bogged down in administrative tasks.
Unknown Speaker 15:03
I can’t. Well, we don’t we go, we’ll talk cuz
Unknown Speaker 15:09
you got this the formula that I’m looking to start because I, you know, I’ve ran for vice president NSW, New York State. You Yeah. And I won. Um,
Unknown Speaker 15:24
I don’t fit anymore. your social media fi.
Unknown Speaker 15:27
It was in August.
Unknown Speaker 15:30
Oh, okay. Okay. Okay.
Unknown Speaker 15:32
Yeah. Um, for July, June, whenever.
Unknown Speaker 15:37
It’s all, like laughs
Unknown Speaker 15:41
um, but I say that to say that within our practice, but because there are two vice presidents, the other Vice President, she does private practice consulting. And so in our, in our network, we have like a private practice listserv, where we can ask them questions about how to stop private practice out of sort of good practices. So those are the conversations that I’ve been having. And I’ve been hearing a lot of scary stories about the about taking the insurance side one. One, the group practices because you’re supposed to have a set number of clinicians in order to take certain insurances, I don’t know, I think sometimes just kind of not kind of having less information is more being that you don’t have, like, you’re so naive and so green, that you just don’t think of the things that, like you don’t think of the obstacles. And sometimes other people’s experiences will just make you not go after the things.
Unknown Speaker 16:44
Unknown Speaker 16:45
I agree. I’m not really limiting myself to that. But yeah, I’m actually in the process of getting out of my contracts in my solo practice, so that I can go full, full cache, okay. And that’s how john wanted to do the coaching. So that’s another reason why I want to get the clinicians in so that they can take off, you know, more, yes, the clients, I’m completely full in my practice right now. I’m in terms of like, my solo practice. And so, you know, being able to have clinicians underneath me, that my clients will trust, because I’m like, I’m gonna send you to another clinician, you can’t meet me, but, you know, this is somebody that I supervise, that would, that would be helpful, but I’m not looking forward to the higher end piece of it.
Unknown Speaker 17:32
You are, you’re definitely we’re definitely on the same wavelength because I’m looking to to transition to coaching to and do less therapy. And I’m building this group practice to not only give back to the community and hire people that look like me, but as the way to create passive income. I’ll just keep the 110% I’ll be Yeah, I you know, therapy is great. And I totally enjoy it. I don’t know if I will just leave it 100 like all together, but I’m done. I’m going back for sure. Like you having your interest I definitely provide supervision to people who are you know, getting their license, I have a couple supervisees I do professional coaching for people who are actually licensed. So I’m doing it already but now I just need to like you said have that whole thing just kind of set up we’re just a smooth locomotive. Yeah. But but the higher end though I’ll say this, I went on like this bench and found like all these different besides indeed, they have like where you can post your free job ad and it got so bad I had to pause the job because I got so many applicants It was crazy.
Unknown Speaker 18:45
And then what is your challenge to be like? I’m looking for clinicians who look like me.
Unknown Speaker 18:50
Okay, so here’s the deal I if you were good on paper I really don’t know if you’re black, white, Asian, whatever you are our least inner our least interview you um, but when in an interview I have had black and white people that just didn’t make the cut yet but it’s just what they do in an interview. One girl was just like, Oh, my private practice isn’t making any money right now is kind of slow but what do you what do you what would you pay me per hour and I was like, I will pay you this and she was like, Oh, that’s not enough money for me. Okay, no problem you can have that that’s okay. That’s your choice. Your practice isn’t bringing any money in but my this so you could if you felt like he was meeting a cache then we could have worked something out but whatever.
Unknown Speaker 19:36
Um, you don’t really want that client that that show because you see, like, I don’t mind. First of all, I’m not hiring anybody but LMS Ws periodic so you shouldn’t be you shouldn’t be having a private practice of your LMS W. I want to work with people who want to get their license I’m trying to create the next generation Yes, yes. ws and not be that barrier. That Had a white clinician telling me she wasn’t gonna sign off on my paperwork when I needed to get my get my hours. Yeah, tell me I did this, there’s gonna be no hiring of people already in private practice because you’re not gonna have the ability to be unless it’s my niece, because my niece is an lcsw. So here’s the deal, I didn’t well she will be as soon as she passed a damn test,
Unknown Speaker 20:22
and she’s gonna pass nice, you’re gonna pass you’re gonna get your seat, honey, I don’t have a problem, which will, Okay, so here’s the deal, she lives over, like literally in a western part of the state. So imagine somebody like a buffalo, interviewing for you, for you. I didn’t hurt her having her solo practice wasn’t definitely going to intervene with mine, because she lives in a part of the state where it’s only like, to be honest, a bunch of Caucasians that I’m not even reached even looking for. So she could have had her private practice, I didn’t matter. It was just the conversation, how she went about it, that totally turned me off. And I was like, you know, where you will be a problem down the line. So let me go ahead and just fix this. And we, you know, that just ended. Um, and then the other interview ease, they were just very lackluster. There was nothing that was the Wow, there was a young lady, she was a sister. And I said, Well, I’ll take a chance to hire her because I remember being pre licensed and want to grow in practice. I gave her a chance. And it backfired. And I had to let her go.
Unknown Speaker 21:21
Unknown Speaker 21:22
okay, so you I don’t want you to, because I’m not, but
Unknown Speaker 21:27
that was a backfire.
Unknown Speaker 21:28
So here’s what I’ll say, I am very clear. The first thing guys today, interview is Thank you, I want to be very open and transparent, because that’s how I communicate, if you’re not transparent and communicated with me, then this is not gonna work. That’s the first thing that I say, because this is a very, um, I won’t say high demand, but it can’t be high demand, and you got to have the autonomy to work on your own, I can’t micromanage you, I run to practices on top of everything else that I do. So if I have to micromanage you about your notes, or getting something in Honey, you’re gonna get left behind, and I just came from if you wanted a team, so long story short, I don’t send out emails every single day, we’re not a we’re not a nine to five. So whenever if I’m if I’m communicating with you phone call, email, your text, you need to respond within 24 hours. And when you when you don’t, you’re costing me money. And one thing you don’t do is play with my money. And this happened almost four occasions, and I was just like, okay, she gotta go does not work. Okay? So when you again, working online, or doing telework, whatever your job is, you got to be able to be accessible. So if I sent you a text, you could text me back, but you cannot go days without texting me back. That’s not how that works. It’s not like I’m gonna see you in the office tomorrow at seven o’clock.
Unknown Speaker 22:55
I feel you know, so, yeah, ah, I get it. I get it completely.
Unknown Speaker 23:03
So it was like, I basically, um, I took a loan out when and I was and that was okay. Because, again, you, I was just learning and going through, and realizing that even though you want to have people who are black and brown, they still got to be able to come in and hold the way and hold their own. So I think for me, I just had a soft spot and in a horrible moment, it is what it is, I don’t regret it because I learned something, something from it. You have to come in though, with a certain amount of zeal, tenacity and independence again to work for me because this is a position that is totally remote and what you’re responsible for. And if you can’t hold you know your weight with of that in addition to everything else you got going on, then this might not you know, work for you. There’s a set you know, of number of clients that I would like for each condition to have because as their contractors, they’re not full employees, full time employees, or contractors, Philadelphia or Pennsylvania Rather, they don’t make it a requirement is kind of like because you can’t require them because if you do it’s kinda like again dumping employees but what exactly but there’s a suggest that you know, number there as far as building a case low
Unknown Speaker 24:17
Well, that’s all I knew, because they need to know how much how much money they can make.
Unknown Speaker 24:21
I agree I’m transparent with that. We have conversations with that I you know, we have our monthly staff meetings. I’m hoping COVID will be nice next year because I would like to plan some retreats, because our theme or my theme for the online group practice is self care. Very, very, very, very dangerous up here. So I’m hoping that you know, all goes well with that. But yeah, the higher end piece Oh, it can Yeah, it can it can definitely be a beast. But I again, I went to all these different online job sites like indeed, you know, your monsters or whatever the case may be It and people just flooded me and flooded me and flooded me and some people. Indeed that’s why I love it. You can put up these pre questions. And people won’t even take the pre question there. I’m like, Okay, well
Unknown Speaker 25:12
Unknown Speaker 25:12
you don’t take the pre questionnaire you don’t even get looked at reject reject. It’s like if they weed themselves out.
Unknown Speaker 25:21
Unknown Speaker 25:24
Yeah. So, um, Effie
Unknown Speaker 25:27
is different, I guess because I’m looking at it from a intern perspective. Okay. And I’ve had some pretty crappy interns. Lab has some pretty crappy interns. And so I’m not looking forward to it.
Unknown Speaker 25:47
Well, because you’re going up to people who have their ill, I think you’re going to have a different type of experience the more mature audience, or at least they should be, but not on the level of like an intern where they could just you know,
Unknown Speaker 26:03
get that No, I
Unknown Speaker 26:03
mean, I totally get it. But I mean, I’m just saying in terms of professionalism is professionalism is professionalism. If you’re in school, and you’re in a professional environment, and you’re getting your hours, you should be professional. Yeah. And not everybody is at the same, you know, place this year is the first year that I’ve had BSW students, and it’s completely different from my MSW. But I’ve also had, I’ve also had some not great MSW students.
Unknown Speaker 26:33
Unknown Speaker 26:36
Oh, girl. Wow. Well, I will say this, because a lot of my interns, and this is the first time that I didn’t take an intern, since I started from Columbia University, Columbia University, it’s a Ivy League school, it’s prestigious, it’s a certain kind of student that goes to that school. And I mean, I don’t want to type. But, like, there is a sense of entitlement sometimes to some of those rules. And in the number of interns that I have had, I will say that the majority of them were excellent. And one of them was just not great. But there were some things going on some racial things happening, some sexism things happening, and I had to just get him gathered. Hmm.
Unknown Speaker 27:35
Yeah, I can’t take the entitlement and in the end, the privilege because I because that has come out. Definitely, um, in the interview, you know, process to people regardless, um, which I find amazing, but then again, I don’t, I think more so I’m more surprised. They they just don’t humble themselves.
Unknown Speaker 27:59
And even that to say, if you wanted to have like a mixed practice where you have, you know, white clinicians come in or other clinicians come in, depending on where you are, that may be your target audience or your niche or the clientele that you’re looking to expand into. Sometimes, you know, I don’t I don’t want to run a business and still feel like I gotta be working with people who act like they’re the boss like, Hello situation. With my internet. I have to be like, fun. You don’t know anything? You’re here because I know everything and Oh, they just hung up and listen to what we trying to tell you. I got what you’re trying to help you get it if you just listen to me. Like why you keep fighting me on what I’m trying to tell you. And you know, often don’t want to have to boss up and be like, you know, I but I had to explain to him No, I have the credentials. I don’t know if you just see me coming in my own office. And my my sneakers and he was so mad. I don’t know what I’m doing. But go look up my license. My awards go look up things that I haven’t done. Any stop telling me what you ain’t gonna do when you come into my office? Okay. Ah, he had the women’s shook at school, huh? Oh, man.
Unknown Speaker 29:26
Unknown Speaker 29:27
Unknown Speaker 29:28
because the staff at Columbia a while I will meet let me back up the staff at Columbia because it is social work. School is is also women too. Right. So most social work schools are filled with, with with women on a certain level, right, because most social workers are just women. It wasn’t what it is. But like the white clinicians that worked in the school or white, you know, people who worked in field placement. He had them On shake. With the black women that worked in that school, we were all on the same page. Gotcha. Gotcha. So it was very. And I had to call my old supervisor to be like, ma’am, am I crazy? Tell me what it is. Because I’m like, you know, he was they want one of my first first Super supervision clients. And so or interns, and so I was like, maybe I don’t know what I’m doing. Maybe if maybe it’s me, and my supervisor had my old supervisor had to be like, No, you got this, it’s not a problem. And he was backing you up.
Unknown Speaker 30:37
Unknown Speaker 30:39
The school is backing you up. Like, I’m seeing the same problems that you’re seeing it as you’re presenting it to me. So this is what you need to do. And I was like, Okay, I got this. Cuz somebody will come in, and you know exactly what you’re doing. And they’ll just try to knock you off your game you like I noticed that notice stuff? Do I notice? it? You know, you
Unknown Speaker 31:00
definitely not gonna do that in my business. Right? They will have you internalizing it and then making you think you have imposter syndrome. And that’s not the case. Right? I and you know, for the record, I don’t have a problem hiring someone that’s Caucasian, I just have not found one that has been humbled enough in the interview, either they don’t know what they don’t know. Because I’m definitely running you through the wringer on therapy modalities and things that I find that I’m going to need you to know for my practice. Or you come in in a you have that privilege, Kochi, um, that whole, you know, attitude. Not it’s not going to happen. Three, you’re trying to one lady told me Oh, um, are you using zoom? I say, yeah, we’re gonna use zoom for the interview. Oh, well, I don’t have zoom. So can you use such and such? And we’ll just meet there, I’ll send you an invite. Excuse me? No, no, no, thank you. Um, and then I have a couple who want to make more than me, this is what you will get paid per hour. And that’s it. You don’t have to accept it. But that’s what it is. No, you will not make more than me. So I just I just don’t want to know what
Unknown Speaker 32:16
I mean. I don’t I don’t take I won’t, and I’m not in that place yet. But I’m not gonna take that personal. But the main problem that I have with some way clinicians is the self centering. Because the clients are the authorities, and I use this analogy, when I speak to my clients, I am a real estate agent, you own the house. Now I can tell you what features is gonna sell this. lets you tell you know that the palming is bad. You know what I’m saying? Like you own this? Yeah. You’re right. And so I don’t, I’m not coming in to like, we modeled a house. I’m Matt arctech. Um, you know, this ain’t an appraisal. I’m a real estate agent and you own mouse. And what happens a lot of times with a lot of, you know, white women clinicians that I see from the groups that I’m in, it’s a lot of them, and there’s their issues and their stuff. And I’m gonna say this too. I’m seeing that a lot more to in the Blackhawks, and I’m into
Unknown Speaker 33:25
Unknown Speaker 33:28
especially now that were like, this is a telehealth thing. Not everybody. You know, I’ve been telling you this before, I was trying to be completely, you know, location independent on 2021. I’ve said that on, on the show multiple times. had happened in 2020, that God sped up my timeline. Um, and while I was making money in my practice, previously, this wasn’t my main gig. My main gig was, you know, doing the other consultation work that I was doing and that was making a lot of money doing with the station, right? No, not with this. Oh,
Unknown Speaker 34:05
it was in the hospital. Yeah, right. Okay. I know was something
Unknown Speaker 34:09
um, but my caseload reduced number one and then because we would sell a health they decided that they was gonna pay us less. I mean, I’m not mad at it, I’ll, I’ll still make my phone calls and see those clients online. But it was it was just a different different deal for me, because I didn’t you know, I didn’t contract with this job at this rate. And at this volume, but if this is what this is, during a pandemic, I will pay my light bill which a little bit of money.
Unknown Speaker 34:43
Unknown Speaker 34:44
Um, so I was like, Okay, I also have to like pivot and like, really get focused about what I need to make in this practice and make it work and I’m full. So I mean, everything happens for a reason and I’m not mad at it. Was I’m grateful to be able to have survived the parents and make it happen home and my son has a job and he’s home. So, you know, we haven’t had to do a lot of the work that some people have had to do, we’ll make that choice of like going out and working and 16 my clients will even they still wanted us to see clients, up until the state shut down. But I had already been shut down. Because I attended a funeral and someone at the funeral was exposed to COVID. Like, first week in March, February. Like early early, okay, so, I was already in quarantine before I knew I was in quarantine. And so when they were like, oh, could you go see these clients, and I’m like, nah. And it wasn’t, it wasn’t really about me, it was the fact that we’re number one My son has that he has asthma. And he was here and he wasn’t he wasn’t working at fun, but like I couldn’t, I’m not going outside exposing my son to number one. And number two, I don’t know what the what the the health is of my clients until I get there. And a lot you know, this a lot of mental mentally ill clients, they live with parents, elderly parents and stuff you get in a household and is a 90 year old in there and breathing on people and coughing and a pandemic. And I don’t know what this is no, not gonna do it. So, that was that was my beginning of the year. But how have you been navigating? I feel like I got off topic. What I was saying was in these groups, in these groups, what happens is, is that now that we’re doing telehealth, this is a very much more intimate situation. Then, I’m used to you know what I’m saying? Like, I’m not used to seeing my clients houses in like, their husbands in the background and like, people have dressed and one of my clients, she was the bathroom and I had to be like, ma’am, you could have just turned the camera off.
Unknown Speaker 37:09
Oh my god.
Unknown Speaker 37:11
Like, wow, wow, things are happening. Trust me. But like I don’t you know, I’m seeing like a lot of be in these groups where? Oh, my God, when the clinician she told the story the other day, um, am I gonna post an issue? I mean, shoot it but she got on. She got was a little miss. She forgot what a wig on. Yeah. I guess she had a break. And she took it off. And then she got she forgot to put it on. And she was like, y’all, I could not focus because I was looking at my braids sticking up off the top of my head. I just continue with this session. Like everything was okay. I was like, there’s no, there’s absolutely no way I couldn’t even focus on the client. I’d have been looking at myself, you know?
Unknown Speaker 37:55
Unknown Speaker 37:56
I cannot imagine.
Unknown Speaker 37:59
I think God ain’t got to admit it. But like, sometimes my clients got the head scoffs on and sometimes they you know, one of my clients, she was laying in bed and I’m like, Okay, I’ll have no problem with any it is. One of my clients had a drink. Some people are complaining about their clients smoking weed. Listen, if therapy is part of this self care time and smoking weed is how the evil acts. I really, I can’t smell it. It’s not in my house. It’s not bothering me none as long as they could communicate. They’re not impaired. I don’t I don’t care only thing that I kind of make a rule about his driving. And I don’t actually mind if you are having therapy with me, and you’re driving, I just want you to turn the camera off because I don’t want you trying to look in. Okay, that’s it. Okay, um, and if the as you’re driving, I’ll turn my camera. Like, if I know you’re driving, I’ll turn my camera roll off so that you’re not trying to look at me. That’s it. But you know, I feel like we’re not we’re not giving each other and our clients grace to like, Did this showing up for therapy in a pandemic? I feel like part of that you got to give them grace for so if they’re making eggs or making breakfast or their kids or you know, smoking a cigarette. I don’t give a I don’t care. Yeah, I’ll
Unknown Speaker 39:23
be hearing some of the wow this
Unknown Speaker 39:25
story. I mean, I don’t want your pin and please don’t have sex but besides that, I don’t
Unknown Speaker 39:30
care. Mostly Yeah, taking a therapist to the bathroom where you go going out to buy a bottle, liquor and eyelashes and taking you to the beauty shops. One
Unknown Speaker 39:41
One girl said that. One of the therapist said that her client was like she had to go to work after that. And so she had to put she had to lay down her waist police for it. So they talked about she laid down a lace front. Listen, this is what being a black us Hello.
Unknown Speaker 39:57
Hello. Hello. Hello. Hello.
Unknown Speaker 39:59
This is all for the coaches. Yeah, it is. I don’t, I don’t be understanding why everybody, you know, not everybody, but when some of these groups that they’re complaining about these kind of things, this is the intimacy of telehealth.
Unknown Speaker 40:14
Yeah, cuz there’s some clients, I ain’t gonna hold you I showed up with my bonnet and and just to let them know, like, today’s that type of day, but I’m here for you with my body. And they’ll just laugh at me like it’s okay. Dr. Holly, because sometimes, as a therapist, some things I don’t have it. You’re not
Unknown Speaker 40:29
I mean, and I’m giving you all that guy. And I’ve made this space just
Unknown Speaker 40:32
Yes. So you know, you’re going to take this bond and just for this hour, honey.
Unknown Speaker 40:39
Now, I’ve never I’ve never had a bonnet on before, but I have been in bed. I’m not gonna lie. on a few occasions, especially when I’m PMS thing. And I’m cramping. It is what it is. I’m here I showed up. But I got to sit in this sit up in this bed and have this conversation with you while this heating pad is on me. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 40:58
yeah. I mean, listen, we all like we said, it’s what a culture. We all have our own little, you know, things, right that we do when we show up in the therapy room. That because now we’re at home, we wouldn’t necessarily do if we were face to face, but I haven’t had any issue. My clients aren’t the only thing like you were saying was is being graded. Don’t come where you’re just totally, you know, I really haven’t had that. And I haven’t either. I haven’t either. That would just really be kind of like Molly thing just because, of course, the ethics and laws behind that. But other than that I haven’t I have not had any issues. People kids be bounced up and down in a lab. And I’m like, let them they have just as much energy as other kids that are home because the COVID just that the mega sensitive session, it doesn’t matter. You know what I mean? Like, like you said, you just this is where we showing up. Now I did telehealth in my solo practice before COVID. So it wasn’t a
Unknown Speaker 41:51
Unknown Speaker 41:53
and into but it was a more of a it was more of a, like convincing people. Yes.
Unknown Speaker 41:59
So a lot of the professionals that I work with, they would travel either throughout the country or throughout the world. And so we would do telehealth from like their hotel rooms or wherever they were to airport, blah, blah, blah. But it was like a 7030 split. But now because the COVID were forced to do telehealth, and it’s more like a damn near 990 1099 90 10% like split.
Unknown Speaker 42:23
I’m not going to office at all. I haven’t been there. I have
Unknown Speaker 42:28
gone for like one or two clients who needed actual face to face for some work related concerns and issues. But outside of that, no.
Unknown Speaker 42:41
No, not at all.
Unknown Speaker 42:43
I had. And I’m thankful I had an home office built in the basement. So I have that space carved out just for me. And it’s been working out very well. Yeah, no complaints, just really focused in like I said, one building the group practice and you know, identifying a couple more people because I have a set number of where I’m trying to, you know, go with this and like you you’re saying being licensed to other states of identify some other cities, but I haven’t gotten that far. Everything is feel like okay, what’s the what are the small steps to do now? And then what’s my angle? And then the thing is all in between? So, but it’s going I have no complaints to be on? You okay.
Unknown Speaker 43:27
And so this has been just this year. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 43:30
I launched my last soccer practice in July and I hired my two first clinician in mid August. I had let one go in September, and I’m looking to bring one one in January to replace her. And yeah, is what it is. Yeah, it’s again, it’s all new. It’s not even hasn’t even been sick. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 43:53